Curse

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Do not post links to outside websites containing bots. Do not post names of websites containing bots. Blur out all names, including guild tags, in any pictures posted. Thank you.

EDIT: Before you read anything, I ADMIT I post this out of personal reasons. I don't care all that much about "the general community". I care about the fact that I'm getting outplayed by bots, and getting rewards stolen by it. Despite me having acces to certain of these bots doesn't mean I want to use them. I want to earn rewards (Be it get 1st in snowball AT's, or win a mini greased lightning) using MY SKILL, and being able to tell to friends: "I won this because I'm good at "xx" thing". Right now, that is being denied by the existence of bots.

SECOND EDIT: And can we please stop the "Bots don't exist because I got a 480K time without using a bot". Just because you can interrupt a 1/4 second spell, doesn't mean the interrupt bot is a hoax. Given, some people ARE more gifted than others in certain aspects of life (Or Guild Wars in this case). But when the same "elite"-few seem to win prizes with scores FAR ABOVE those of average, or even top players, at a constent rates, this IS suspicious.

If you still believe some people are so good at RBR they can consistently produce 480K+ scores, then you should also concider the possibility that the interrupt bot does NOT exist, and some people are capable of reflexing 1/4 second spells 24/7 on multiple targets.

Dear Regina/Gaile,

I kindly ask you to take preventive actions against botters in Rollerbeetle Racing Arenas this year. I think every acount in top 100, or atleast the ones getting reported should be taken more seriously than they have been at the past 3 years.

Right now, Anet is still employing the Ostrich technique in regards to high-quality bots (Not some Auto-it/hotkey scripts), either not giving out enough information regarding this issue, or simply ignoring it all together.

People are using BOTS to FARM PVP REWARDS, how is this not a serious issue? Comming into close contact with ex-members of GWLP, I have a certain knowledge on what bots exist, and how they work.

The interrupt bot, as of recent widely known, is the prime example. I knew about it's existence for over 2 years now, yet people laughed those claims away... How can you expect people to take this serious, if you yourself don't even take it serious?! People are facing interrupt bots every day, but they don't report for the obvious reason they "believe" there is no such thing as interrupt bots, and even if they do, they see the same people still using those bots weeks later. (No actions are getting taken)

The same can be said for Snowball Arenas and Rollerbeetle racing. For 3 years now, people have been botting those, yet never have actions been taken. Some people have earned over 10 Mini rollerbeetles, well over 20 stacks of zkeys, yet no actions are being taken.

If I was allowed to post links here, or even direct download links, I could send the links to either said programs, or the pages in which those programs are for sale/download.

I have thouroughy explained the Snowball Arena bot on Gaile's wiki page, yet no reply or action has been taken.

But it's not too late. I don't even want the people using those bots getting banned, I don't care about them. All I want this year, is a fair chance at getting a mini-rollerbeetle... With the Dragon Festival incomming (And also RBR if I'm not mistaken), I think me, and everyone, should get a fair chance at getting a high-priced reward.

(I came in 105th or something last year, I got kicked out of top 100 in the last 2 hours of the event)

All I want you (Anet) to do is 2 things:

-Acknowledge the existence of said bots, just so people can actually use the /report proporly. Reportng only backfires if you're the only one doing it...

-Take this issue seriously. Again, PvP rewards are GETTING FARMED BY BOTS. This isn't some PvE farmbot, where there are no direct victims, this is "stealing" rewards from other legit players...

And as a final note I would like to say:

If no reply is being made (Both on wiki, here or from Guild Wars), I WILL make said bots public. The interrupt bot is already publicly available, but that's only the start. If you guys don't care, I don't care either, and every PvP'er will be abusing those bots...

And a quick list of bots who I know for a fact exists due to personal experience or simply having the download link/page:

-Interrupt bot (Another version, which allows multiple bar set-ups, as well as more complicated actions -Glyph of Essence Diversion "interrupting" eg)
-Pick-Up bot (comonly used in Snowball arenas by multiple guilds)
-Dodge bot (As the above, usually is integrated in the pick-up bot)
-Rollerbeetle bot (Multiple version, some use click to move -which works through packet pinging-, others have "flawless" pre-recorded routes, and the bot optimizes strafing/corner cutting)
-Weapon swapping bot (This will allow you to set parameters for certain bars, and the bot will then weapon swap for you. I have seen this in action in high-end GvG already, I won't call out names)

These are existing bots, which see use every day. There also is some other projects which are not within my grasp, or simply kept low by that community themselves.

Thanks alot to JR for keeping this thread clean, and giving it a second chance, appreciated.

Tullzinski · Jan 19, 2010, 04:26 PM // 16:26

DId you email this to regina/gaile? If you email to them you can include any links....

Polgara Val · Jan 19, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

I can only comment about RBR in regards to botting.

Two things I would like to point out here to the OP, firstly the Dragon Festival RBR top 100 do not get a reward, its just for having fun and getting a top time.

Secondly, botting in RBR is probably the worst way of getting into the top 100, I can tell you from personal experience that the top 100 in the Canthan New year will be extremelly competitive and there is no bot in my opinion that can anticapate the various variables required to get a top 100 time. I know nobody including myself that has ever or will ever use something as overrated as a bot to get a top time.

Fact is a bot can not match the human factor in regards to the various changes and adjustments required to get into the top 100. Even if there is a bot in existence (which I find quite sad) that can get a top 100 time, the chances of it achieving this goal is extremelly unlikely considering all the variables required to do so within a race.

Pol

Kattar · Jan 19, 2010, 04:44 PM // 16:44

You know you can pm people, right? They much prefer communication via the wiki as well.

The Arching Healer · Jan 19, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

You know you can pm people, right? They much prefer communication via the wiki as well.

If u actually read the post, you would have seen that he posted it on wiki aswell.

Also I dont care anymore about people using bots. The game is allready too dead to even put a minute work in it. But I would like to test the RBR bot in the name of science that it actually works and exists. But after all, it is retarded that these bots are still around, since many people have known their existence for a long time. (Especially the interrupt bot). And it isnt that hard to make bots not functioning , it is just that Anet never cared enough.

Conclusion: I agree with the OP and gimme rollerbeetle bot.

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 04:52 PM // 16:52

You know how you win a beetle, Borat?

Play better.

The top times are generated legitimately. If I can throw up a 484 without cheating using a legacy rig and a garbage connection, so can you.

There's a concept called the scientific method that you should look into. Experiment. Try things. Find a half second here and a half second there. It adds up.

I find your whining appallingly entitled. Winning in HA does not mean that you have the skill to win a beetle. Quit blaming others and tossing unfounded accusations around.

I'm not denying that there appear to be bots out there in GvG. I'm not convinced on Snowball Arena. I've obsed several matches that others indicated were suspicious and saw nothing that could not be explained by positioning and reflexes. As for RBR - it wouldn't help. If you want a time, you need a clean run. No bot could defend adequately.

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 04:53 PM // 16:53

I already emailed Gaile, but my email is getting ignored due to a previous issue I had with support. (I was persistant about my innocence in a perm ban, yet they refused to hear my story)

I made a nice little thread on her wiki page aswell...

In reply to the "players are better than bots". I can see where you're comming from, but you need to understand what bots are capable of doing. In RBR, it comes down to getting a flawless run. If your run isn't flawless, there is no point in trying. So there is NO reason for your bot to anticipate on anything. On top of that, the magic about "playing through code" is that the impossible becomes possible. It IS possible to detect incomming KD's (Spit rocks, and to a certain extend that Rollerbeetle Blast), tough I don't know the exact know-how of this. The dodge bot works in a similar way.

So there is no reason for the bot to anticipate anything. All it needs to do is have a good start, with no kd's, and from there on, just play the same map over and over again. (The map doesn't change, there is no variables -So I don't know what you're talking about)
The start is different, yet, but this is nothing a bot couldn't solve. For starters, it can check the color, and pick the according path for each color. I can also use in-game coordinates (Each tile has a coordinate) to position itself, and calculate the optimal route.

All this SOUNDS complicated, but I can be created with no more than 200-300 lines of code. (In C++, C#, you name it)

Same for the boxes. If it DOESN'T get Super RB, there is no point in continuing any further in the first place, so there is not point in "coding" "what if you don't get xx power-up at XX box", as you only get top times with certain power-ups.

I never said this bot will get you a 480K time every time you go in, I'm saying this bot will perform FLAWLESS PLAY. (Cutting corners perfectly, etc) And then the player only has to worry about going in often enough to get a couple of good runs. (No kd's, and good power ups)

I myself am capable of 475k+ times (Which is how I got into top 100 last year), if I perfect my corner cutting, and managed to get a ping below 200, I could probably cut another second or 4-5. But I simply can't compete with a bot.

Just like the interrupt bot: A player can interrupt a 1/4s spell once, maybe twice, but in the long run, the bot is always going to produce more and better results...

iTzF3aR · Jan 19, 2010, 04:57 PM // 16:57

I made a post on her feedback page.

gone · Jan 19, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by killed u man

Comming into close contact with ex-members of GWLP, I have a certain knowledge on what bots exist, and how they work.

Will any of them be making an appearance in this thread to back up your claims?

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Borat, we MAKE clean runs happen. After about the first four hours, people stop being incompetent and you have to use Shield properly to get clean runs.

When to Shield varies with opponent behavior. A bot can't handle that.

475+ won't get it done. That's your problem. You're going to need 481+ this year.

It isn't just corner cutting. You need to change where you're using speed boosts if you're giving away that much time.

Polgara Val · Jan 19, 2010, 05:03 PM // 17:03

I am not saying it isint possible to create a bot in RBR all I am saying is it doesent stand a chance against the top 100 RBR racers during the Canthan New Year since there is a reward involved and certainly not the top 10. I still firmly believe that a bot has practically no chance of getting into the top 100 in this years RBR event.

Last year the cut off point in the top 100 was about what 480? So in short its unlikely.

Pol

PS: Martin you Borat fan

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

It isn't just corner cutting. You need to change where you're using speed boosts if you're giving away that much time.

I played with Yuris a couple of time last year. I print screened his exact move. At one point, I was even able to chase him down till the very end of the map. I print screened his EXACT locations of using dash. Aside from the fact that his strafing IS flawless, it's also EXACTLY the same every time I faced him. There was no, and I mean NO variation in his play whatsover. (So this either means 2 things: He's botting, or he's really using the most optimal route)

I copied his exact moves, and I got a 478K time (I think that was my record last year). I KNOW I could still improve my strafing a little bit, but my dash/ram usage is 100% dead on perfect.

Propagating this isn't a good idea, no matter who already knows about it.

I also used this video as training material, and this video also perfectly explains my point. Look at this video, and tell me that rollerbeetle behaviour isn't botlike. Look at him cut corners, and PERFECTLY end every corner (He doesn't need to adjust his stearing whatsoever after he leaves the corner). If you watch formula 1 drivers, you see the cut corners perfectly, but they still need to adjust their "route" as they leave the corner a little bit, because it's impossible to make get the perfect angle (°) every time you leave a corner. This rollerbeetle has the perfect angle at ALL times. Not once does he need to adjust his angle by the slightest bit...

Again, this CAN be human behaviour if it happens once. Maybe twice, but definatly not every time you go in. (Think about it, the pressing of your turning keys (left and right) would have to be timed on the millisecond EVERY CORNER over and over again)

He, and those other top 100 players, ALWAYS manage to get FLAWLESS strafes (every time), and ALL happen to be in the same guild (The ony your in), and you expect this NOT to be suspicious?

Or is it just coincidence that ALL top rollerbeetlers are in the same guild, and seem to be the ONLY ONES who are capable of achieving such flawless play over and over again, yet have not made any real achievements outside of areas which I know bots exist for?

@ Flubber, I can have one of the creators of said bots come here and explain/proof their existence, tough I don't see the need.
1) It is without his knowledge I'm posting this here. He probably would be mad I'm publicly annoucing the existence of bots he spend a fair amount of time in creating.
2) What's the point? All I'm asking is that Anet keeps an extra eye out for RBR this year, if only the top 100 scores.

Polgara Val · Jan 19, 2010, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I played with Yuris a couple of time last year. I print screened his exact movie. At one point, I was even able to chase him down till the very end of the map. I print screened his EXACT locations of using dash. Aside from the fact that his strafing IS flawless, it's also EXACTLY the same every time I faced him. There was no, and I mean NO variation in his play whatsover. (So this either means 2 things: He's botting, or he's really using the most optimal route)

I copied his exact moves, and I got a 478K time (I think that was my record last year). I KNOW I could still improve my strafing a little bit, but my dash/ram usage is 100% dead on perfect.

He, and those other top 100 players, ALWAYS manage to get FLAWLESS strafes (every time), and ALL happen to be in the same guild (The ony your in), and you expect this NOT to be suspicious?

Or is it just coincidence that ALL top rollerbeetlers are in the same guild, and seem to be the ONLY ONES who are capable of achieving such flawless play over and over again, yet have not made any real achievements outside of areas which I know bots exist for?

I think you will find that the top 10 RBR racers baring one or two come from various guilds. I also know Yuri and he is just a very good racer who knows what and when to strafe, ram and dash when appropriate.

Pol

gone · Jan 19, 2010, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

@ Flubber, I can have one of the creators of said bots come here and explain/proof their existence, tough I don't see the need.

If you don't see the need, you shouldn't be making the claims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

1) It is without his knowledge I'm posting this here. He probably would be mad I'm publicly annoucing the existence of bots he spend a fair amount of time in creating.

why would he care if he's an ex-member of said guild? is he botting himself? after all it can be done with only 200-300 lines of code. right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

2) What's the point? All I'm asking is that Anet keeps an extra eye out for RBR this year, if only the top 100 scores.

The point is...well, to back up YOUR claims and to look less like a.....whiner.

Artisan Archer · Jan 19, 2010, 05:26 PM // 17:26

I got 480k without botting last year... just copying that youtube video.

Kattar · Jan 19, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

If u actually read the post, you would have seen that he posted it on wiki aswell.

I was more pointing out the real reason you're posted here, rather than making a suggestion.

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 05:31 PM // 17:31

First of all, not all of the top rollerbeetle players are in [dth]. Second, people congregated here after they got good at RBR, primarily for the Snowball ATs. Believe it or not, there isn't a lot of information trading about RBR going on. We swap info, but everyone holds something back. We all want to be the best.

The reason that most of us haven't "made any real achievements" is that we're a bunch of old-timers. Very few of us still play heavily or regularly, outside of events. There's lots of top 100 experience...from back in the day when that meant something.

You see consistency because we've done a lot more runs than you. But that consistency varies across players. I don't do things exactly the way Yuri, Pol, Lain, Armina or Shayne does them. There's general agreement on the first 45 seconds or so. After that the runs differ.

Good example of the difference: why are you strafing? I don't touch Q or E...

If you're only posting 478s, your Dash and Ram usage isn't 100% perfect. It really is that simple. The tolerances are around 1/4 of a second in some places.

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 05:37 PM // 17:37

I don't want to/need to back up my claims. I KNOW they exist, and regardless of the community knowing it now, I want to bring this to Anet's attention. They have access to the input logs, I don't. I want them to acknowledge people have been using dodge/pickup bots in snowball.

I want them to, this year, check the people who get top times. Even tough it will not be easy. (Again, these aren't some auto-it script bots who RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up every fifth second, these are intelligent bots DESIGNED to mimic real player behaviour, albeit with relatively flawless play)

And as I said, I will make a bot public (useless at the moment anyways) if no offical replies will be made.

gone · Jan 19, 2010, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I don't want to/need to back up my claims. I KNOW they exist, and regardless of the community knowing it now, I want to bring this to Anet's attention. They have access to the input logs, I don't. I want them to acknowledge people have been using dodge/pickup bots in snowball.

dodge/pick-up macros/bots are one thing. a racing bot is an actual accomplishment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I want them to, this year, check the people who get top times. Even tough it will not be easy. (Again, these aren't some auto-it script bots who RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up every fifth second, these are intelligent bots DESIGNED to mimic real player behaviour, albeit with relatively flawless play)

see above

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And as I said, I will make a bot public (useless at the moment anyways) if no offical replies will be made.

it will get deleted as soon as you do. again, dodge/rupt/pickup macros/bots are one thing, a RBR bot, or someone you think is using one, is something I'd like to see in action.

Reverend Dr · Jan 19, 2010, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Damnit people.

1. Borat is really whiney, we all know this.

2. He's whining about an issue that should make the entire playerbase absolutely furious at Anet.